March 25, 2008
"What is Yours is Mine, and What is
Mine is Mine"--He is a Wicked Man: Haredim and
Organ Donation
Haredim.
Ha'aretz reports:
The Knesset approved a law yesterday intended to regulate organ donations in
compliance with Jewish law. The bill was passed with the support of the
ultra-Orthodox Shas party.
The new law on brain and respiratory death was introduced by MK Otniel Schneller (Kadima), and it was accompanied by an exceptional process
of discussion between rabbis and doctors. The bill enjoyed the support of
senior rabbis from the Sephardic ultra-Orthodox community as well as from the
National Religious camp, including the Shas spiritual
leader Rabbi Ovadia Yosef
and Sephardi Chief Rabbi Shlomo
Amar. Ashkenazi interpreters of halakah, however, were in disagreement on the bill.
Politicians say the real test of the new law will be the publication of
calls by rabbis for organ donation, defining it as a religious obligation.
Ultimately, success will be determined by the rabbis' ability to convince the
religious and traditional public to support organ donations.
The law determines, among other things, that brokering sales of organs,
whether in
According to Tamar Ashkenazi, who heads the
Out of the 145 families asked to permit organ donations in 2007, only 61
agreed. The organs from these 61 donors were transplanted into 231 people. This
means every donor saved about four others.
According to Ashkenazi, half of those families that refused said they did so
for religious reasons, with some saying they wanted to preserve the wholeness
of the body. In practice, it is very difficult to differentiate between the two
explanations.
The new law is expected to add dozens of donors a year, and could save the
lives of another 100 to 200 people every year.…
Why do Ashkenazi haredi rabbis disagree with the
law? Confusion about what constitutes death:
Brain death usually precedes cardiac death. Most of the internal organs used
for transplants - hearts, lungs and livers - need to be removed during the
brain-death stage, since once the heart stops beating, they will no longer be
fit for transplantation.
The Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox publics have almost completely refrained
from donating organs until now. In the case of the ultra-Orthodox, their rabbis
had not recognized the status of brain death, and therefore viewed the
extraction of such organs as equivalent to murder.…
Before going on it is important to realize that brain stem dead patients do
not recover. Without a respirator they will die within a few minutes, because
the brain does not have the ability to tell the body to breathe at a level to
support life.
To understand the problem, let's go back 100 years or so and see how death
was defined by halakha.
When a person was thought to have passed away, a member of the Chevra Kadisha or the town's
rabbi placed a feather near the nose of the body and watched intently to see if
their was any breathing. If there was not, the person was declared dead.
Rarely, this method failed and an unconscious person
whose breathing was very shallow and sporadic was misdiagnosed as dead. This
accounts for the rare cases of "dead" bodies who "woke up
alive" in their coffins.
Modern medical technology is far more advanced than the feather.
The halakha always was cessation of breathing
determined death.
Today, because of respirators and other medical equipment, a person unable
to breathe on his own can be kept alive. So how should
halakha view this?
In two ways.
First, if the patient can breathe on his own, although that breathing is not
really adequate to support life and the patient will eventually – in a few
hours or days – die from lack of oxygen-profused
blood and its related problems, that person should most always be kept alive.
(There may be exceptions due to other serious issues like end stage cancer or
the like.)
If a person cannot spontaneously breathe, and this is due to an irreversible
brain injury that has caused brain stem death, that person may be disconnected
from life support (carefully, under controlled circumstances and rabbinic
direction). His organs may be taken for transplant.
This is the view of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, of the RCA's committee, of most
National Religious and Modern Orthodox rabbis, and, it now seems, of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and other leading Sefardic rabbis. (Here
is a video of Rabbi Moshe Dovid Tendler
explaining brain stem death. He also explains the process for determining
brain stem death and the difference between brain stem death and a deep coma.)
Despite overwhelming medical and halakic proof
that brain death is halakhic death,
Israeli haredi rabbis like Rabbi Yosef
Shalom Elyahiv disagree. They view the harvesting of
organs as possible murder. It may be interfering with a gosses, a person in his death throes. And halakha, they are quick to point out, forbids us to touch a
gosses or to hasten his
death. They do, however, accept the possibility brain death is
death.
Confused by the issues of life support and artificial respiration, they want
to use cardiac death as the gold standard for halakhic
death, even though cardiac death was never the halakhic
standard.
To clear this up, years ago Rabbi Moshe Dovid Tendler, Rabbi Steinberg and and
others arranged and experiment. Rabbi Tendler had
told Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach about a brain dead woman who was kept alive for
almost two months until her child was developed enough to be born by c-section.
Rabbi Auerbach argued based on a Gemara, that a fetus will
die before its mother, because the fetus is weaker. He refused to believe the
woman was brain dead. So here is what Rabbi Tendler,
Rabbi Steinberg and others did.
A sheep was put on a ventilator and then decapitated. Its heart was kept
beating for four hours afterward. (it could have been
kept beating for days, but the cost of doing so was astronomical.) Rabbi Tendler showed that brain stem death was not much different
than decapitation – remove the respirator and the patient will not
spontaneously breathe. Even so, his heart will continue to beat while the
respirator is attached.. (Rabbi
Tendler explains this experiment toward the end of
this video.)
Rabbi Tendler says Rabbi Auerubach
accepted this as proof that brain stem death is halakhic
death. But Rabbi Auerbach did not publish a responsa on this before his death.
Other Israeli haredi rabbis rejected this
argument, first on the grounds of touching a gosses to determine brain death. Rabbi Tendler and others made short shrift of the argument by
simply pointing out the dye needed to measure brain function would be injected
into the patients I.V. line – following their protocol, the patient would not
be directly touched.
Israeli haredi rabbis then shifted the argument,
claiming cardiac death, not cessation of breathing, was the halakic
standard for determining death.
And so things sat for more than 20 years.
It should therefore follow that haredim who are
followers of Rabbi Elyashiv, the Gerrer
Rebbe, Rabbi Steinman, other hasidic
rebbes, etc., would consider organ donation to be
possible murder would refrain from taking donated organs. After all, what right
would these Jews have to benefit from "murder"?
Further, because haredim do not donate organs, one
would think they should not ethically benefit from the scarce organs that are
available. Other Jews who do donate should get first crack, right?
Wrong.
Haredim, while they will not donate organs, will
take organs others donate, "murder" or not. Further, they often take
places in line ahead of other Jews who are registered organ donors.
While Rabbi Elyashiv and other may see this a leniency, a kula, allowing haredim to have a chance for life where otherwise they
would die.
The problem is, that chance at life comes at the
expense of others who are denied that chance by Rabbi Elyashiv's
actions.
Pirke Avot 5:13 notes:
There are four types among men:
He who says, "What is mine is mine and what is yours is
yours"--this is the common type, though some say that this is the type of
He who says, "What is mine is yours and what is yours is mine"--he
is an ignorant man.
He who says, "What is mine is yours and what is yours is thine own"--he is a saintly man.
And he who says, "What is yours is mine, and what is mine is
mine"--he is a wicked man.
Ha'aretz continues:
Within the national religious community, there was a serious crisis of faith
vis-a-vis the medical establishment, which led to a
lack of agreement on determining the moment of death.
Schneller led a process intended to overcome this
problem. According to the bill that was passed, a committee will be established
to follow the situation and reach agreement. The committee will include rabbis,
doctors and ethicists. It will also authorize doctors who will be responsible
for determining brain death.
The doctors will determine brain death by using a series of different tests
that will verify complete cessation of [spontaneous] breathing and brain
activity. The family can object to organ transplantation, even if a patient is
brain dead. [All this was the practice before the law was passed, although
there were problems sensitizing doctors to the needs of Orthodox families,
largely because the state had not passed a law to do so and had no real
apparatus in place to set standards. And it lacked this for several reasons,
one of which was haredi opposition.]
MK Chaim Amsellem (Shas) explained yesterday that the great advances in
medical instrumentation of recent years are what enabled yesterday's
breakthrough. "For the first time, there is a clear and final statement of
rabbis that the end of brain activity is death. The minute a person is declared
dead, it is clear that the donation is life-saving and a religious
commandment," explained Amsellem. [This same
"first time" happened in
Haredi Opposition
The United Torah Judaism (UTJ) party objected to the law. Its leaders, led
by Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv,
insist that religious law does not recognize brain death as death.
MK Moshe Gafni (UTJ) told the Knesset plenum
yesterday: "A brain-dead person is a living being." Such
opinions are expected to make the promotion of organ donations difficult.
The law passed yesterday by a vote of 38 to 17.
Until now, the rules governing transplants were ordinances set by the director
general of the Health Ministry. The courts have ruled a number of times that
there was a need to legislate the matter in law. One of the results
of a lack of a legal basis was the inability to prosecute organ brokers,
said Ashkenazi. Instead, such cases usually were prosecuted on the basis of
peripheral issues, such as tax evasion.
What was controversial was the acceptance of two amendments proposed by Finance
Minister Roni Bar-On, which cancelled budgets
intended to encourage donations. The main funding was to be for educational and
promotional activites, at a cost of
Israeli take far more organs worldwide than they
donate, so much so that Israelis have been banned from international transplant
waiting lists everywhere but the
As Rabbi Moshe Dovid Tendler
noted years ago, Jews cannot be seen as people who take donated organs (thereby
excluding others from receiving them) but who themselves do not donate. (Video.)
Soon, Rabbi Tendler said, all Orthodox Jews will
be banned from receiving donated organs because of the actions of these rabbis.
This new bill may stave off the crisis for a time. But if secular Israelis
and their black-robed counterparts don't start giving if, God forbid, they are
put into a position to do so, the day may really come when Jews die because
transplant lists are closed to them.
And you'll be able to thank Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the Gerrer Rebbe and many other so-called gedolim
for that.
Halakhic issues (videos). Halakich
issues (articles). Documents.
Brain
death from a secular perspective (warning - very dated)
(video).
UPDATE: Part
2.
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So if an animal is "alive"
after shechita, as it appears they would say because
the heart is still beating, isn't that a gross violation of tzar
baale chayim?
There is a halakhic
understanding that, after shechita the animal needs a
few seconds to bleed out, lose consciousness and die.
Yet, many haredim view the animal as dead
immediately after the shechita cut, even if the
animal is trying to get up and run away.
Many of these same rabbis seem to hold like Rabbi Elyashiv
when it comes to brain death, which seems to be a bit of a contradiction.
But this is not and should not be a discussion of shechita.
We can do that elsewhere on this blog.
Wow good thing I was in the
I know, just was pointing out that its a complete contradiction
B"H
A video lecture that makes interesting points about time of death, shifting
definitions in "medical ethics" and organ donation:
Intro to Medical Ethics
rtsp://yeshivalive.net/tiferesorg/video/tbts64/bb060904a.rm
Didn't Rav
Moshe Feinstein okay organ donation after brain death?
Shmarya writes: Many of these same rabbis seem to
hold like Rabbi Elyashiv when it comes to brain
death, which seems to be a bit of a contradiction.
It's not a contradiction. Perhaps brain death is not the end of life after
all. Look at all those followers of flesh and blood idols...
Shmayra,
You have to start posting about the kid that was shipped to a jamaican concentration camp under
the auspices of the rosh yeshiva of chaim berlin. Check out jewish survivors and UOJ for more
details.
Brain death and brain stem death are not the same thing. Brain death means loss of function
of the cerebrum, the higher portions of the brain. However, respiration and
much of the homeostasis of the body is controlled from the brain stem which
sits below the cerebellum and at the top of the spinal cord. A person can be
brain dead but if his brain stem is functioning, he can continue living as long
as iv fluid is provided to prevent dehydration.
Secondly, the reason cardiac death, which was never considered in older
sources, is so important now is because we now have ways of measuring it.
Indeed, there are times when one, using ECHO
ultrasounds and invasive monitoring, can pick up faint heart beats in the
absence of a palpable pulse. Now, usually a heart this bad off is about to die
anyway but that's not the point. The point is that at that moment it's still
moving. So those authorities who are concerned for cardiac activity base their
opinions on this phenomenon.
Finally, excellent articles on this can be found in books by both Rav J David Bleich and Dr. Fred Rosner. Both make absolutely clear that brain-sterm death = death. The only question is how to determine
if a person on a respirator is brain-stem dead, but once determined to be, only
an idiot (hence the position of UTJ) would say the person is still alive.
It would be refreshing to see some honesty
from Shmarya for a change. Instead, we see the same
old routine where he leaves out numerous facts that would make it more
difficult for him to demonize Rabbi Elyashev.
Rabbi Tendler has been accused of distorting Rabbi
Moshe Feinstein's rulings on death and elsewhere. There is another HODS video
where they ask Rabbi Dovid Feinstein if he believes Tendler is distorting his father's ruling. RDF dances
around the question without answering.
Shmarya is arrogant and not nearly as learned as
most people he quotes. It's not up to him to decide whether the Mishna in Avoth applies here. How
about this? A person who donates his organs has given up any claim to them upon
dying - no matter how they died. No one is "taking" from the
deceased. Organ distribution is decided by govt
authority from what is "hefker".
Shmarya also conveniently omits Rabbi ELyashev's ruling that it is forbidden to take organs from
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080324/health/health_not_dead
SHmarya claimed
in the name of the Gra on Shulchan
Aruch OC 2:6 that one need not wear a yarmulka even when reciting a blessing.
I tracked down the Biur HaGra
on Orach Chaim siman 2. The Gra is entirely
unclear in that short comment and one cannot deduce what his position is
without examining his commentary elsewhere.
The Gra in siman 91 as a
matter of fact cites a ruling in tractate Sofrim that
it is REQUIRED to wear a yarmulka.
Perhaps Shmarya confused the Gra
in 91 with Rabbi Akiva Eiger
there who cites a Terumas Hadeshen
that one cannot explicity prohibit not wearing a yarmulka. Even still, I am not aware of any halachic authority that rules like the Terumas
Hadeshen and custom overrules any previous halachic rulings to become de facto halacha. This itself is a halacha which SHmarya seems
intent to deny at all cost.
More to come on the Yarmulka
issue now that I again have access to the library in my shul.
Archie,
Forget your library. Just read "Yarmulke: A Historic Cover-up?" by
Dan Rabinowitz in Hakira-The
Flatbush Journal of Jewish Law and Thought, Vol. 4, Winter 2007, pp. 221-238.
Maybe Shmarya meant the Gra's
comment on O.C. 8:6, not 2:6.
Shmarya,
I am curious about a separate, rather ubiquitous issue of burying an
intact-since-time-of-death body. I would imagine that most poskim
hold that living donation of a "non-vital" organ like a kidney is
permissible so long as the donor has the other kidney intact and functioning
(rendering the donated kidney non-vital.) But even if respiratory cessation
might be considered death, is there a separate issue of not touching any
of the organs now that death has ensued?
Of course, there is the widely reported
recent case of a brain dead patient whose organs were about to be harvested but
who woke up in time to prevent it.
Nobody has offered any good explanation for this. Perhaps you can.
the biggest
problem is, a haredi rabbi will never allow donating
organs for gentiles.
otherwise, i can't see them
refusing to donate to omygad- a felloejew!
with organs taken from felloejew
or fellowgoy!
"there is
the widely reported recent case of a brain dead patient whose organs were about
to be harvested but who woke up in time to prevent it."
Please don't confuse Shmarya with facts. He might
get unsettled and question your intelligence.
"Dan Rabinowitz
in Hakira-The Flatbush Journal of Jewish Law and
Thought, Vol. 4, Winter 2007"
Is that available anywhere online?
Archie,
Found it. Copy and paste:
http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%204%20Rabinowitz.pdf
If you want a less optimized (not formatted and sans photos) but easier web
version, try here:
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:Fh7Dg6t4Nn4J:www.hakirah.org/Vol%25204%2520Rabinowitz.pdf+http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%25204%2520Rabinowitz.pdf&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
Ah, yes. Scientific certainty.*
Impeccable physicians.ª Note that AP ran these 2 stories the same week
Now mix the Israeli Rabbinate in.
*Man Declared Dead Feels 'Pretty Good'
OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — Four months after he was declared brain dead and
doctors were about to remove his organs for transplant, Zach Dunlap says he
feels "pretty good."
Dunlap was pronounced dead Nov. 19 at United Regional Healthcare System in
Wichita Falls, Texas, after he was injured in an all-terrain vehicle accident.
His family approved having his organs harvested.
As family members were paying their last respects, he moved his foot and hand.
He reacted to a pocketknife scraped across his foot and to pressure applied
under a fingernail. After 48 days in the hospital, he was allowed to return
home, where he continues to work on his recovery.
On Monday, he and his family were in
"I feel pretty good. but it's just hard ... just ain't got the patience," Dunlap told NBC.
Dunlap, 21, of
"I remember a little bit that was about an hour before the accident
happened. But then about six hours before that, I remember," he said.
Dunlap said one thing he does remember is hearing the doctors pronounce him
dead.
"I'm glad I couldn't get up and do what I wanted to do," he said.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iaSD7rm6dRosapRR9aKKcWQXpHLwD8VJRDM81
ªCalif Transplant Doctor Ordered to
Trial
By LINDA DEUTSCH, AP Special Correspondent
Thursday, March 20, 2008
(03-20) 21:30 PDT
A transplant surgeon accused of hastening the death of a man so his organs
could be harvested has been ordered to trial on one count of felony dependent
adult abuse, but two other felony charges involving administration of drugs to
the dying man were dismissed.
The criminal case against Dr. Hootan Roozrokh of
After a preliminary hearing in San Luis Obispo County, Superior Court Judge
Martin J. Tangeman issued a ruling Wednesday
describing an uncoordinated scene surrounding the 2006 death of Ruben Navarro
at Sierra Vista Regional Medical Center, which had never handled a
"Donation After Cardiac Death (DCD)" case.
Navarro, 26, had a debilitating neurological disease and was in a coma when he
was admitted to the hospital after a heart attack.
His mother had authorized harvesting of his organs but because he was not brain
dead, the judge said, it was determined that the transplant procedure to be
used would be DCD, which requires withdrawal of life support leading to death
prior to recovery of organs...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/03/20/state/n174849D69.DTL&hw=transplant&sn=002&sc=735
--
Wrong. It took so long to work things out with the non-haredi
orthodox groups. No one ever believed that they would work things out with the haredi groups so that was never the hold up, but the other
groups were prepared to negotiate and compromise. Make no mistake about this,
the end result is not what the other orthodox groups viewed as the optimal
result, but is the result of estensive negotiations
and compromise. As I pointed out last time Shmarya
addressed organ transplant, his understanding of this issue is (intentionally
or untinentionally) overly simplistic, even
infantile. Virtually everyone, including virtually all haredi
halachic authorities agree that full brain death is
death. The issue is how thoroughly this needs to be diagnosed and how certain
we need to be. There is no question that requiring absolute certainty will
result in signficantly less organs being available
for donation and result in loss of life so this is a major moral dillemma for halachic jews. I'm not in a position to determine whether the
compromises accepted by the orthodox factions that supported this legislation is appropriate or not from a halachic
perspective. Neither is Shmarya in a position to do
so - particularly when he seems to have all his facts wrong. The refusal of the
haredi groups to support this is not because they
would never accept brain death, but rather because they refused to accept any
material uncertainty in the diagnosis. However, that would be a non-starter for
the (non-religous) medical community. For the record,
I am not taking the position that the compromises agreed to by the non-haredi orthodox groups are inappropriate. Organ transplants
save lives so I believe that this warrants making halachically
permissible compromises (i.e. this is not the place to adopt extensive chumrot). This is a tough issue which probably none of us
are (certainly not Shmarya who either doesn't have
his facts right or intentionally distorts them) are qualified to resolve. I am
just trying to correct certain inaccuracies in Shmaryas
post.
--Of course, there is the widely reported
recent case of a brain dead patient whose organs were about to be harvested but
who woke up in time to prevent it.--
Assuming this case does exist, could someone post a link to this. The
medical community is advanced enough today that I would find such a case quite suprising. As I noted above and more extensively last time Shmarya posted about this topic, the push to advance the
diagnosis of death is not because doctors are bad but because they are trying
to save lives. It is a major moral dilemma that is treated differently in
different jurisdictions and sometimes even between hospitals within the some
jurisdiction. The problem is from a halachic
perspective we can't weigh the benefit of one life against another - we need a
definitive diagnosis of death. Of course what is "definitive" from a halachic perspective is subject to debate.
There are plenty of brain dead people
that function. Many of them are Shul Presidents. Some
are running for US President. Being brain dead can be an asset.
Archie,
How about a thank you to me and gross? A bissel
hakaras hatoiv?
Think of all the work we saved you.
Well done, gross.
>>>SHmarya
claimed in the name of the Gra on Shulchan
Aruch OC 2:6 that one need not wear a yarmulka even when reciting a blessing.…<<<
Archie,
Forget your library. Just read "Yarmulke: A Historic Cover-up?" by
Dan Rabinowitz in Hakira-The
Flatbush Journal of Jewish Law and Thought, Vol. 4, Winter 2007, pp. 221-238.
Maybe Shmarya meant the Gra's
comment on O.C. 8:6, not 2:6.
Posted by: shmuel | March 25, 2008 at 08:42 AM
Of course, that is exactly what I told Archie:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/03/senior-member-o.html#comment-106467006
Gra on Orach Chaim 8:6
As for brain dead patients who recover,
this is extremely rare.
It happens when a patient is not brain dead but is, instead, in a deep coma
and the physicians did not do the final test necessary to finalize brain death.
People who cite these extremely rare occurrences do not seem to cite the
much more common incidents of "dead" bodies who
"revived" in the coffin, even though the feather test had been used
as halakha demands.
We don't paskin from the unusual to the usual.
Mistakes will always, God forbid, be made, no matter what system is used, no
matter if organ transplantation is involved or not.
If halakha were forced to rule from the very rare
mistake, nothing would ever get done, medically or otherwise.
Hundreds of thousands of people have been declared brain dead in the
Yet some supporters of Rabbi Elyashiv, et al,
would have you believe this is a frequent occurrence. It is not.
As for Archie's 'defense' of RYSE, and his slur against me, I would point
out I linked directly to the HODS page that has RYSE video.
Like much else of what Archie does, his case is overstated and based on
false information.
Shumel,
Forget Archie. I thank you for the fascinating article. Oh the lies we have
been fed...
SHmuel please. Give me a chance to come back to this post so that
I can thank you & Gross. I plan on taking a look soon.
Thanks
So even if it's only 10 people who were
misdiagnosed as dead, Shmarya would rather sacrifice
them in the name of harvesting their organs & demonizing Rabbi ELyashev.
My only comment about the videos is that one of them gets into the
accusations that Tendler distorts Rabbi Feinstein's
ruling.
"his case is overstated and based on false
information."
It would be beneficial if SHmarya took a good hard
look in the mirror.
WHen I finally
got my hands on a Shulchan Aruch,
I had not seen SHmarya's post for some time. I wasn't
sure if he wrote 6:8 or 8:6. I checked both and did not find anything to
support his claim. After following the flow in the Beit
Yoseph, I found a cryptic passage in 2:6 and a
clearer statement in 91. I later saw the Damesek ELiezer commentary on the Biur Hagra by Rabbi Shmuel Landau of
Vilna says the intention of the Gra in 91 is that a yarmulka is required as I thought he meant.
I mentioned earlier that custom overrides earlier halachic
arbiters. Rabbi Yitzchak Yosef in Yalkut
Yosef says he was told by his father Rabbi Ovadya that even according to the more lenient Sephardic
opinion, it has become binding custom to wear a yarmulka
at all times.
Shmuel, Gross: toda raba for the great article
on the history of head covering. I'm no longer shocked when I see proof of
manipulated/edited text in rabbinic writing; I've seen RaMBaM's
statements tweaked to support certain views as well (Pesach kashruth).
I see Archie still can't admit he's
wrong.
As for his remark:
So even if it's only 10 people who were misdiagnosed as
dead, Shmarya would rather sacrifice them in the name
of harvesting their organs & demonizing Rabbi ELyashev.
This proves Archie's inability to admit th etruth. It also shows
his grasp of the halakhic process is quite weak.
Perhaps you could do us all a favor, Archie. Go away. Your pomposity and
your ignorance are tiring.
--It happens when a patient is not brain
dead but is, instead, in a deep coma and the physicians did not do the final
test necessary to finalize brain death.--
Do tell us oh great one, what is the final test? The absolute
"final" test is usually not peformed
because it takes too long and you would loose organs. Perhaps that is still the
appropriate way to go pursuant to halacha,
but these errors are built into the system and it is misleading to say that
these are because the doctor in question screwed up. The question is how much
of a margin of error is okay.
--People who cite these extremely rare occurrences do not seem to cite the
much more common incidents of "dead" bodies who "revived"
in the coffin, even though the feather test had been used as halakha demands.--
This is rediculous. The much more common margin of
error under the feather test was because medical technology was primitive at
that time. It has no bearing on what we should do today when the relevant
technology is widely available.
--Mistakes will always, God forbid, be made, no matter what system is used,
no matter if organ transplantation is involved or not.--
Again, you are conflating two issues and you need to differentiate between
human error and systematic error (i.e. errors that will be made even if all
procedures are followed). Human error will always exist, though we need to
monitor that doctors, even with good intentions, don't try to short cut the
required controls and procedures. At issue here is what kind of systematic error
should be acceptable. Having said that, the story mentioned about someone
waking up to stop his organs from being harvested, if true and recent, is
likely the result of human error, or even more likely the result of human short
cuts, and not systematic error.
What's your problem Mr. No-Name Phantom?
I said even if. I think there have been more than 10 people. I know one of them
personally.
The question is whether the person who
woke up met the criteria for brain death and was still alive or whether there
was human error involved.
To date, no doctor has asserted that human error or mechanical failure was
the cause of the misdiagnosis. It is possible the hospital fears litigation;
but it does not sound to me like anybody is suing.
It amy be that brain dead
is not as absolute as doctors would like us to believe. Where that leaves us halchically I will leave to those who are experts in Halacha.
P.S. Did Rav Moshe Feinstein, Z'tzal,
ever write a tshuva approving brain death criteria or
transplants. In the absence of a written tshuva (preferably not in the more recent volumes which are
not his writing)it is virtually impossible to tell
what his views were).
--I know one of them personally.--
Are you at liberty to disclose the relevant facts?
"Are you at liberty to disclose the
relevant facts?"
He was discharged by a hospital to a morgue for burial. Before the chevra kadisha could prepare his
body, he snapped out of whatever suspended state he was in and actually just
stood up and walked away.
This type of scenario is obviously much more uncommon than the others who
are not dead yet still quite ill.
P.S. Did Rav
Moshe Feinstein, Z'tzal, ever write a tshuva approving brain death criteria or transplants.
In the absence of a written tshuva (preferably not in
the more recent volumes which are not his writing)it
is virtually impossible to tell what his views were).
Some linked here:
http://www.hods.org/English/h-issues/articlesE.asp
A lot of the questions about halachic organ donation are answered here:
http://www.hods.org/index.shtml
Do tell us oh great one, what is the
final test? The absolute "final" test is usually not peformed because it takes too long and you would loose
organs.
Injecting radioctive dye takes a few minutes.
--Injecting radioctive
dye takes a few minutes.--
Is injecting radiactive dye required under the
guidelines adopted by
btw, did you know that certain studies found that
one in one thousand people who are diagnosed as brain dead survived when the
machines are switched off. Not that they got up and walked away, but they
didn't die.
--Other Israeli haredi rabbis rejected this
argument, first on the grounds of touching a gosses to determine brain death.--
btw, while this is a nice attempt at making this a haredi/MO disagreement, you get an A for effort but an F
for accuracy. Rabbi Tendler's position on brain death
is in fact opposed by many current and former MO leaders, including Rabbis Shachter, Wagner, Willig and Bleich and, when he was alive, Rav
Aron Soloveitchik.
Talking of the devil,
just saw this on CNN. and this happen even though the
diagnosis was made with the help of a brain scan!
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/24/NotDead.ap/index.html
Good. Thank God.
Now what do we do?
Paskin
from the most extreme case possible?
If you answer yes to that question, would you approve the same for
administration of blood transfusions, antibiotics, and the like? Angioplasty? Bypass surgery?
Because, if you answer yes, all these treatments are out
the window.
--Now what do we do?--
Have no clue - that is for the doctors and rabbis to decide. But for those
with at least a shred of integrity, what we do is recognize that your
characterization of the halachic issues relating to
organ donation was a gross oversimplification.
what
we do is recognize that your characterization of the halachic
issues relating to organ donation was a gross oversimplification
Not at all. The only "gross
oversimplification" here is yours.
Anyone who paskins from a one in
a billion occurrence is a fool.